The accomplished MMA referee and fan-favorite talks hardcore punk, downward elbows and practicing what you preach.

How did you get involved with martial arts?

I was a Berkeley skate punk kid who grew up in the hardcore punk scene playing in bands. Back in 1992, a friend of mine’s band was on tour with Biohazard and they were training jiu-jitsu. When they came back they had a copy of this 170lb Royce Gracie guy in action beating 220lb guys and I was like, "Wow, I need to learn this!" I hunted down a school and straight away started training jiu-jitsu.

Is jiu-jitsu the only thing you learned?

I started out in jiu-jitsu but then later on a friend of mine did kickboxing in Thailand. I started holding pads for him and eventually I started getting into Muay Thai. I then moved from that into a more boxing style.

Did you ever fight?

Yeah, I had a couple early on. Nothing of the UFC caliber (laughs). I kinda gravitated to the referee thing instead. One of my friends was fighting one day so I went along to watch. He lost, but the referee let it go on way too long. I could see my buddy was done; he took so much damage he was left with a level-three concussion for six months! I went up to the promoter and said, "Hey, I can do better than this guy!’ There was no clear-cut route to how you become an official. It was just ‘bring you gear to the next show and we’ll see how it goes." I did and that’s the beginning from there.

Do you still train today?

Yeah. I used to train jiu-jitsu six days a week but now I do it twice a week. I primarily train the gi. I’m a traditionalist so I have a passion for Gracie jiu-jitsu. I feel the gi is the canvas we paint on. The athleticism and the speed is the no-gi.

How important do you feel it is for a ref to train MMA?

It’s imperative; an absolute must. You don’t have to be a black belt but if you have a blue belt’s knowledge of what’s going on then you can preemptively think of where the fight’s going in those moments. If you don’t train, you don’t really know what you’re looking at. To me, part of being a good ref is seeing these situations unfold before they happen.

What advice would you give an up-and-coming guy who wanted to get into MMA refereeing?

The first thing would be to enroll at your local jiu-jitsu club. It doesn’t have to be BJJ or a high level. You need to train with someone who has a great knowledge of all the fundamentals. Second, go take one of the AVC’s certified referee course. Jon McCarthy has one, Herb Dean has one, Mario Yamasaki has one. That’ll teach you the basic criteria of being a ref as well as a judge. I was watching a piece on TV on how different states have different criteria and that’s a problem – football doesn’t have different rules in different states. That’s something that needs to be addressed. Then, depending on where you are, a wannabe pro would need to work in the amateur circuit first and when they get experience they can submit an application to the local athletic commission and go from there.

Is there anything you’d change regarding MMA rules?

I wouldn’t like to see any changes to the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts. I think the downward elbow rule is redundant. It was made at the time because guys were shooting in and getting elbowed in the back of the head and neck but now there’s rules against that stating they’re foul areas anyway.

Do you think the West should have adopted the yellow card system?

It definitely worked in Pride. It had a certain drama to it. I’d like to see these guys go at it a bit more but there’s no rules saying it has to be a fast-paced fight. Sometimes it’s gonna be a slow, ugly fight, but that’s how some guys need to fight. We can take points for stalling – I’ve never had to do that but we can do that. I usually stand them up or give them a warning, saying, "Guys, we need to pick things up here," but there’s no rules saying it can’t be slow and ugly (laughs).